Follow-up: Pro-rape advocacy, “male rights”, and rape culture
Yup, that’s right ladies and gentlemen. Today we’ll be revisiting our earlier discussion with pro-rape advocate and libertarian Eivind Berge (#8 in the Worst People Awards) in order to finish demolishing his argument (that’s right, we weren’t done!) and to set the stage for our next post on rape culture in America and the world.
Let’s finish this
Eivind thinks women have always been in lower economic positions because they’re hypergamous and not as capable as men. This is perhaps the most revealing of his statements, as it shows how women must be seen to be able to justify rape:
First, let’s get something clear. Women are not stupid—on average, we’re as intelligent as any male, as tests over the last century have confirmed. Occasionally we are found to be a few points less intelligent, but that’s been disputed by men, and women have been found to have higher IQ’s at later stages of life. Indeed, some attempts to show men as more intelligent have been found as fraudulent. Any neuroscientist knows the differences in the male and female brain are more subtle and varied than the stereotypes and that intelligence differences between the two come down to where that intelligence is slightly stronger. While women sometimes have to act stupid to either be socially acceptable or to not frighten men, the IQ tests show it’s just that: an act.
Why, then, have we consistently been worse off? Time for a history lesson, which I’m shocked and appalled I need to give. In the past, which Eivind Berge has clearly never read about, women weren’t allowed to raise their positions in any way except marriage. They could not get themselves educations, despite fighting constantly for the chance. There are here and there rare examples of mostly self-educated women who were taught to read, but I note that in American society for example, pre-Civil War reformation culture was due largely to womens’ newfound right to literacy. They had no property rights, indeed, they were considered property of their husband’s. They had no legal power, and were not allowed to so much as challenge their society without, y’know, being burned for witchcraft or beat by their husbands.
Hypergamous? Yea, women had to be. As one commenter put it:
It strikes me that hypergamy can only occur in societies where there is a pronounced social inequality between sexes in the first place. ‘Marrying up’ is presumably an attempt to address that imbalance for some reason, possibly for the sake of children. Wouldn’t this imply that as the sexes become more equal in terms of status, money, power etc, the difference between the desirability of rich and poor men will decrease?
Eivind, of course, entirely ignored this suggestion, as he has ignored anything which proved his argument wrong. Which includes a great deal of comments on his own blog, for example:
I thought I could leave this alone, but alas, I can’t. Your anger about affirmative action is sorely misplaced. Affirmative action was not pushed through by "feminists." Affirmative action was pushed through the political sphere, which is overwhelmingly controlled by men (for example, in the US, only 17 out of 100 senators are female today). So you should really be angry with other men, not women.
…as well as comments made here showing that male sexuality is no less of a potential resource than female sexuality, that women desire men regardless of their economic power, etc, etc. All of that? Ignored. In fact, Eivind Berge simply dropped out of the debate this post is continuing from, claiming that he simply “didn’t have the time” (despite being able to go after the weakest and least relevant points in my post), yet has continued debating elsewhere.
Eivind also bases many of his claims on A Natural History of Rape—which is all fine and good except that it makes up half of his references and it is not held as a very reputable source. As is pointed out:
Example: Thornhill claims that a study has shown that reproductive-age women are more traumatized by rape than older or younger women who are not in danger of pregnancy, and he takes this as one of the pillars of his argument that rape is a strategy for reproduction. Problem: His reference for this study is one of his own articles, dated 1991. When you go find this article, you find that it contains a reference to one of his articles, dated 1990. When you find this, it references the study yet again, but in an article of his dated in the early 1980s. When you find this article, you find another reference, but at least this is to the original research — a study of 27 women that was done in 1974, and which, in fact, the original researchers (not Thornhill) found to indicate that women of all ages and reproductive status were equally traumatized. It was only after Thornhill ran this study through a series of computerized "filters" to factor out things he felt to be extraneous, was he able to turn this interpretation on its head. And it seems that he and Palmer went to extraordinary lengths to make the original data hard to find, in order to obscure the small size and age of the study as well as the original interpretation. The accepted method for citation is to list the original study "as quoted in" one’s own article — not simply to quote one’s own series of articles.
Clearly Eivind Berge’s statements are not as factual as he wants us to believe. Where his opponents have brought up countless counter-examples and academic knowledge, he has simply ignored them.
The final blow to Eivind Berge’s claims? It’s well acknowledged that the single largest factor in women’s choice of mates is the man’s natural body odor. Try taking a bath, Eivind.
Every assumption which supports Eivind Berge’s argument is false. Every (and by every, I mean two) piece of evidence highly disputed. Women desire sex and treat male sexuality as a commodity when they have the ability to. Human sexuality and psychology is more conflicted than black and white—we are aggressive and murderous, but at the same time infinitely empathetic. Urges and needs drive us but so do kindness, affection, and morality. But, like every libertarian, Eivind Berge is incapable of seeing the humanity beyond the cold, hard social economics.
And in a more humorous end, let’s point out another way in which Eivind Berge is wrong—here’s an example of a “free-sex” brothel opening in Norway where men and women are volunteering to have sex with strangers, for free. Kind of goes against everything he’s claimed, doesn’t it.
Sorry, Eivind, but you no longer have a right to claim that no one’s proved you wrong. It’s been done a hundred times over, by me, by LT, by Sanna, by anyone with simple logic. Your sources are awful, your claims shown false by numerous examples, your loss evidenced by your backing away.
On the rape-friendly culture it’s shown us
There’s an unsung hero in the comment log of Eivind Berge’s article on “rape as equality”, a mysterious woman by the username of LT who unfortunately has no way to contact her and thank her for her patience in dealing with his creep. Consider this my thank you, LT.
The great blessing of the internet is that anonymity lets us know what people are really thinking. Here’s part of every comment agreeing with Eivind Berge’s rape is equality post. They should chill you to the bone. Each quote is from a different person—and there are more in his other posts agreeing with him.
sex is a mans BIRTHRIGHT!nope, im no ‘misogynist’.
Women use the government to steal from men, and force men to be weak. It is fair on this basis that men steal sex, and make women weak.
I thought of this too, but it is good to see how other men have already followed through on the logical consequences of affirmative action for women once you do away with the feminist hypocrisy and double standards.However, as an individual, I don’t feel this means that I need to go around raping women to rectify the loss to myself due to affirmative action policies. It merely means that I would be morally justified to do so. A right does not imply a responsibility to use that right, no matter what some may say. As I currently am, not raping anyone, I am not in the wrong.
i really dont see anything wrong with eivinds hypothesis about a possible blowback to radical feminists hypergamous golddigging.
Thank you for this interesting and informative blog post. It spoke to me, as a man, in a way few blogs have. I agree with you completely. The designs of feminists to systematically deprive or forcefully extort from men, have created a society where every whims and fancies of women are considered as genuine demands, while any genuine needs of men are looked upon as if men are too demanding or demeaning women!!! Moreover, the feminists designs have resulted in so many false and frivolous rape and sexual harassment charges against men. What about that?? Is it justified in name of equality?? There are numerous examples: One example is a recent one happened in India, where a woman after a full 1-year live-in relationship with a man calls RAPE and the poor man has now been arrested. Isn’t this an emotional/financial/social RAPE of MAN?
That’s right, if you’re a gold-digger you should be raped. He’s not even justifying it in broad social equality terms.
if EVERY woman on the planet, right now, got REALLY raped, yknow, (NOT the i gut drunk and regret last years sex with my boyfriend ‘rape’) but actually forcibly raped by a STRANGER, i wouldnt give one damn shit. not one damn lil bit. and i SURE as hell dont care about what goes on in africa
A few more notes. Eivind Berge actually claims that when a white man rapes a woman, it’s a made up feminist statistic, but it’s not (and somehow worse) when non-whites do it:
Black men raping white women is pretty much the norm in Norway, too. All 41 alleged real rapes (not bogus feminist rape, which they convict white men for to make the stats look prettier by SWPL standards) in Oslo from 2006-2008 were committed by non-Western immigrants, mostly Africans and Kurds. It is astonishing that the police themselves admit this.
This isn’t trolling. Rape culture is a horrible reality, and in my next post I’ll examine it more closely.
A final way in which you can take action
Sign our petition or write to the University of Bergen and ask them to restrict his access to female students. He is a danger to the women around him and I truly hope action is taken.
And finally, I leave you with something chilling Eivind Berge stated: “More feminism will only produce more men like me.”
Until inequality is challenged, things often seem to be just fine; when groups stand up and demand equality, we suddenly see how fiercely people will defend their privilege. —Sociological Images
It’s funny you made this post when I posted mine about how fed up I am with the idea of women only being victims view in the feminist discussion.
Addendum:
I wouldn’t even say that there’s “just” a rape culture among Westerners, but there’s a whole culture that supports violence towards women in general among, what may seem to be, completely normal and functioning men:
http://pikabu.ru/view/devushka_udalila_vsekh_geroev_wow_svoego_parnya_50432
Check out some of the comments.
Thanks for the link – certainly will, and I’ll give your post a read. :)
I do think you’re right that gender relations aren’t so black and white. It certainly is skewed towards oppression of women in general, but it’s more complex than that.
Yeah, it’s good, very useful, thanks :)
Gender relations are always complex and of course a majority of men would never hurt a woman, including the Bedouin men that are so often accused of honor related crimes. I added a post about the book you mentioned as well and my thoughts about it. I should get around reading it later because it’s better that way of course, but I think the amount of reviews that commented on the lack of proper methodology speaks volumes, too. When that many reviews complain about the same thing, then it can’t be moeaning for the sake of it. I also just totally love how the majority of the reviews that were positive of the book either dismissed the criticism as “not understanding the book properly” or “are too stuck in their own worldviews” cards. Disgusting.
Hi again
About the a “free-sex” brothel, it turned out to be a scam/media stunt:
http://arkiv.na24.no/Nyhet/386857/-+Gratisbordellene+var+en+bl%C3%B8ff.html
As for the rape statistics, you are both wrong.
If Eivind claimed that all the reported attacking rapes /rapes commited in the streets of Oslo 2006-2008, were commited by black men, he would certainly be telling the truth.
Anyway, the feminists in Norway have concluded that between 8000 and 16000 rapes (16000 is the most used number) is taking place in Norway every year, based on tha fact that less than 1000 rapes is being reported, without ever saying anything on how they got to this conclusion. This numbers are debatable to say the least.
Stop picking together statistics to fit your argument.
1) A majority of all rapes are done by someone known to the victim
2) A majority of all rapes happen at a place the victim knows, such as his/her apartment
3) There is a HUGE number of women who never report rapes because of the social sanctions carried against them
4) A majority of all rapes are not done by some dark stranger in the empty park or the lone alley
5) A majority of all rapists judged in court are released due to “lack of evidence” even when the evidence is strongly supporting the victim’s case, showing a serious bias issue
Putting all this together, it is not strange at all that feminists report a higher number of rapes that are occuring. Just because a crime is not reported does not mean it was not committed. All criminal statistics I’ve seen regarding rape support my stance, so what about yours?
Given this background, it is not in fact strange women do not feel generally positive reporting rapes. In Sweden there was a huge issue about a girl who charged a popular boy a bit older than her for rape, which escalated to the point where the whole town in which she lived shunned her, created lies about her and spread false rumors based on no evidence of what happened. All her friends left her, Facebook groups were created against her calling her a liar. A majority of the society supported the boy, and they still did even though he raped AGAIN. He also admitted to the rape himself when questioned.
Just to show the pain women must go through when they report rape on a man.
” There is a HUGE number of women who never report rapes because of the social sanctions carried against them”
This is made up assumption that has no basis in reality.Using similar rationale I can assert anything I want.
“A majority of all rapists judged in court are released due to “lack of evidence” even when the evidence is strongly supporting the victim’s case, showing a serious bias issue”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/feedarticle/8949340
The report, written by Professor Cheryl Thomas from University College London, analysed all four thousand jury rape verdicts in England and Wales between 2006 and 2008. It found 55% of rape cases resulted in conviction.
In fact, other serious crimes such as attempted murder, manslaughter and making threats to kill, have lower conviction rates than rape cases.
You guys can use this too:
http://www.freewebs.com/feminism-evaluated/
It is not true that men have no sexual value. When women have a choice, they pick a man based on his sexual attributes, not based on his ability to provide. This has been evident for decades now (and even before). Even though men have more testosterone, women still have a rather high sex drive, it is just differently spread out and women act differently on their sex drive because they risk much more and also because they are more romantically inclined.
Women have a natural desire for handsome, relatively young men. If given a choice (and they haven’t had choice until relatively recent) women do not pick an older, affluent man for sex (unless it’s a barter). Some men have very high sexual value/worth based on their genetic advantages. When economically safe, women will follow their real nature and pick the most handsome and healthy male. Some men may not know this because they are not women, they don’t know what the female body feels like and they have been conditioned by the social and cultural norms of patriarchy. They seem to believe that women are turned on by money and power. The fact is, we are all attracted by wealth and status. And we are all attracted by beauty, regardless of our sex.
Women’s sexuality is not malleable, it is a physical given determined by chemical reactions in the body, what is malleable is her attitude / pre-disposition – how far she can be forced to put out (give) her sexuality due to her economic/survival needs (and the needs of her child). If a woman is economically desperate, she will turn amicable towards a male with resources, but she will not desire him more physically. She will just tolerate him more.
Why did men pick younger, sexier partners? Because they could. Women never really had that chance (until very recent).
And there is, of course, a very strong moral argument in this whole issue. Can we really claim that “sex is a woman’s resource”? Naturally it is, but from the human perspective, by assuming that women should trade in their sexuality for men’s economic resources and protection, we are basically reducing women to the status of a commodity. Sexuality resides within a body and the body belongs to a person. Body and soul are in fact intertwined in a human being. So by trading in the woman’s sexuality/body for male resources, we are in fact dehumanizing the woman and reducing her to a mere material object. We are depriving the woman of her soul. Money is something that is outside of a man, it is a resource that he acquires or does not based on his free will. While men are culturally identified by their money, the money itself is not the equivalent of the man, the money is not the man himself. While in the case of female sexuality, the sex, the body, is the female herself. These are not two comparable things. One is of human substance (in the woman’s case), the other is of merely material, perishable substance.
Indeed, the man trades the protection for the woman’s womb. However, the woman’s body does not belong to the man. If he wants to bear offspring, it is only fair and normal that he provides protection. If he doesn’t protect/provide, he has no right to share the woman’s body. Rape will not be a solution. The only other alternative is to get the woman through loving her.
“Stop picking together statistics to fit your argument.”
Jeez, is there anything at all persons who disagree with you about anything are allowed to do?
Earlier you accused Eivind for reffering to research of bad quality. Now I’m (and Eivind is) reffering to official
police statistics and that is also bad debate tecnique?
to answer your question, nope, feminits believe what they want.
but, i’ll waste a minute here.
http://www.falserapearchives.blogspot.com/2009/06/archives-of-sexual-behavior-feb-1994.html
an unbiased, impartial, objective study
conlusion: 50% of all rapes are later proven false
and another unbiased, independent scource:
http://www.theforensicsexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
conclusion: 50% of all rape claims are alter proven false
oops. my bad, that would be:
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/
wow. what moron would give a thumbs down to these posts?
if you cant take the truth, kill yourself.
i notice the usual conspicous silence when women are confronted by facts.
being naturally irrational it’s no big shock.
Oh, please, misogynist. Your blinders are on just a bit too tight, you can’t see anything but what you want to see because you are convinced that a chromosome separates evil from good.
“For example, in 1995, 8% of all forcible rape cases were closed as unfounded, as were 15% in 1996 (Greenfeld, 1997). According to the FBI, a report should only be considered unfounded when investigation revealed that the elements of the crime were not met or the report was “false” (which is not defined) (FBI, 2007).”
Hardly a huge number. The article asserts those women are lying but not only do numerous other, and more likely possibilities exist, what the out-of-court justice system determines and what is reality is hardly the same thing. You hate cops, I’m surprised you’re not aware of this. Or maybe you are and are choosing to forget it.
You ignore the fact that the majority of women raped are lower class, minority, or on the fringes of society. For example we think that prostitutes cannot be raped, an absurd notion. Combine that with males being in charge of the entire process, women terrified to give evidence when most rapes are committed by someone the woman knows (and when the woman doesn’t know the rapist, even when he has, threats of violence against her are likely) and when rape charges are disqualified simply based on the woman having had sex with others, maybe if you take that into account (you’ll have to take down those blinders first, I doubt it’s possible for you) you’ll be surprised there are so few “unfounded” rapes.
Nowhere does it say these are rape charges only made by women–only the author asserts that but the statistics do not. You ASSUME it is only women making the “false” claims because that is what you want to believe. Yet you and your friend Eivind are convinced that men are making false rape charges, and you ignore it here. Men are raped, men make rape charges, those rape charges are ignored and laughed at because of the ridiculous idea that “men cannot be raped”. So now you have not only women being raped and ignored but men being raped and ignored.
Now, finally, after ALL of that, we get to the few amount of truly false rape charges. Now why would someone make such a charge? Here are a few reasons:
-She is simply an uncaring, malicious person.
-She has no other way to get an abusive significant other away from her/her children.
-She had sex, willingly, but the shame of having a child/abortion is more than she can live with in a patriarchal, Christian, women-must-be-virgins society, where the shame will mean losing her family and future and having to bear a child she does not want.
-She genuinely thinks she was raped and is not taking responsibility for getting drunk/being stupid, HOWEVER, responsibility is not entirely hers. It is a mix depending on the situation.
So, to finish off. No one’s responding because your claim is, how do I put this, fucking retarded. Only a person with the most misogynistic blinders in the world would actually believe that women are throwing around rape accusations right and left despite the shame that such accusations will bring to their heads in this patriarchal women-must-be-virgins society.
So, take your misogynistic bullshit, and shove it. :)
I was utterly disgusted by those quotes by people trying to defend rape culture. Unfortunately I ran into this culture all the time while at college. It was completely normal and acceptable for guys to talk openly, even jokingly, about getting a girl drunk before having sex with her. It blew my mind that they couldn’t understand how that was rape. Every time I heard another make a remark like that I tried to call him out on it. I got a couple of my housemates to recognize that it was in fact rape, but the other guys on campus just thought I was weird.
My junior year I shared a house with a bunch of other guys who would often throw parties. One of their friends, a female student, came over and got drunk at out house. She then left with a guy she was interested in. The two of them bought some tainted drugs from a dealer and she collapsed into a comma after taking them. Instead of rushing her to the hospital, the guy she was with took her limp body back to his fraternity house and proceeded to rape her for two hours. Only when he was satisfied did he take her to the hospital. They doctors did a rape kit test and got a positive result, but the lady didn’t want to press charges because “she thought he was a nice guy.” My friends and I were furious and wanted to start a campaign on campus to raise awareness about rape, but the college told us that if we raised a stink about it, we’d face severe punishment…. The rape culture swung into action to protect this pig, it was disgusting.